Your Thoughts About Christians and the Christian Faith

[Samantha Blythe]

Hi, I just joined We Make Zines a few days ago...I've been making zines for about 17 years. I am a Christian and wonder why more Christians don't use this medium. I am also kind of a square peg in a round hole in the Christian world for a lot of reasons, and I often wonder what non-Christians think about Christians/Christianity and why, and am considering making a zine about that. Would you share with me any stereotypes of/experiences with/thoughts about Christians themselves and/or the Christian faith in particular? I am not going to debate anyone, so don't worry about being negative...I am really just interested to know what kind of impression Christians/Christianity have/has on non-Christians, and zine writers are great at sharing their opinions ;-) Thanks!

[James N. Dawson]

Adam Icarus said:

Before I try to respond to this, I'd like to know exactly what you consider to be things that the secularists push on everyone. I'd like to at least try to understand where you're coming from.

There are SO, SO, SO many laws, ordinances and regulations, that are grounded in a generally SECULAR worldview that it's hard to know where to begin.

1. Mandatory compulsory schooling and anti-truancy laws. Admittedly this started out as an anti-Catholic movement started to indoctrinate Catholic immigrants into mainstream Protestant values. But today, one main rationalization is to "socialize" children and make them "good", "productive" citizens.

2. Seatbelt, motorcycle helmut laws, bike helmut laws for children, safety seat regulation. Based on the SECULAR idea of the state as parent/protector/school master/marm of all adults and children, FOR THEIR OWN GOOD.

3. Commitment laws, based on SECULAR standards of "normalcy" defined in the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), the "Bible" of state-approved, "scientific" Psychology.

I readily admit, that 50, 100 years ago, POLITICALLY ACTIVE Christians insidiously weaved much of the their religion into government at all levels. Sometimes, it's hard to identify, because it's so subtle. I call it "crypto-theocracy", and I even suspect many right-leaning libertarians of defending/rationalizing some of it.

However, I think many anti-Christian left/secularists also oppress people with their presumptuous vision of THEIR "good society" and "weave" them into law. I don't even think it's necessarily calculated or malicious. It's just arrogant in a naive and well-intentioned sort of way. Like the Christians of old who sincerely thought they were doing good bringing civilization to the heathen, the secularists see themselves as making this world all safe and fair and rationally enlightened by "teaching" the masses of children "right thinking" based on "scientific" psychology and regulating all manner of adult behavior with the same glorious social goals.

I have a few issues with Christians myself. Samantha and I may have a few frank discussions about them at some point. But I'd like to keep them fair. I can sympathize with some of the response I've seen to Christians, but I think it's one-sided and exaggerated.

[Samantha Blythe]

Can't wait to have that discussion, James ;-)

The fact is that all politics is pushing a worldview. People who want to work within the State, whether they are Christian or not, think that their worldview is the right one, and therefore they want to try to enforce that worldview by law.

[Samantha Blythe]

Yee Haw...this is soooooo right! Abolish public education, public libraries and other things that are supposed to belong to "everyone", but which just become breeding grounds for dissension, because "everyone" is not going to be happy. Things that belong to "everyone" really belong to the State, and the State will use it to push it's agenda, either overtly or covertly. Let people use their money to support educational opportunities and private libraries that offer the kind of stuff they are looking for. Oh, and bring back apprenticeship as a way to enter the professions, and lift minimum age laws for work, too.

James N. Dawson said:

Meaghan,


In a libertarian society there would be no public school monopoly or mandatory attendence and no truancy laws. Christians, Buddhists, secularists, Satanists, Sub Gennii, would all have their own schools if they wanted to send their children to a school at all.


JND

[Giz]

early resist's issue deals could be considered as christan zines.

[Samantha Blythe]

Sorry, Adam....didn't mean to sound so over the top...it was late and it is so rare to find another person who has considered a society without government schooling that I got overly excited. Forgive me, please?

Anyway, as far as schools and libraries go, without the public options what you would get is real diversity. In this country at least - don't know about other countries - there were plenty of schools before there were mandatory attendance laws, and the literacy rate was actually higher then. If libraries were fee supported, then Christians wouldn't be bitching about immoral stuff therein, because they could join a library that didn't carry that kind of thing...and they wouldn't be trying to "get prayer back in schools" because they would choose schools that had their students pray if that's what they wanted. There could be schools just for the children of gay parents, so they could go to a school where they are not persecuted because of a different family structure...the list is endless.

I think a lot of people assume that someone who doesn't support State education doesn't care about education at all. I am wondering if this is what you think, and that's why my statement made you so mad. There is a logical fallacy called the either/or fallacy wherein it is assumed that your choices are limited to EITHER this OR that. One thing that libertarians believe is that if people want something, they will find it or create it if it doesn't exist - assuming their ability to do so is not thwarted by an outside agent. So we think that if there were no public education, there would be all kinds of educational opportunities that would spring up - including various options for poor people, which could range from outright charity schools to co-ops where the parents teach, to not much schooling at all, in favor of really working.

Anyway, I am interested to see that this thread now contains great food for thought about TWO of my great interests...and yes, you contributed greatly to the original topic and I was enjoying your contributions to the tangent. Sorry again for sounding shrill!



Adam Icarus said:

You know what? Never mind. I'm out. When "Abolish public education, public libraries..." comes up in this discussion, it's time for me to leave. I hope I contributed something to the original topic, Samantha.

[Samantha Blythe]

Agree that there is no point in arguing!

Adam Icarus said:

I didn't mean to sound angry. I just realized there was no point in arguing over the affects of a secular vs religious society, especially when extreme libertarianism is introduced to it. Because once again, you're picking and choosing what you believe are rights.

Once we get rid of anything that's public domain, like schooling and libraries, it then becomes a question of how far. Do we get rid of Medicaid and Medicare? Do we allow companies and organizations to own the highways? Do parks even exist anymore, as most people who have the money to own them would build over them? What about access to common communication mediums, which are regulated by the government?

There needs to be a balance between freedom and protection, whether from external or internal forces, in my opinion, and you don't agree. There's just no point to arguing about it, as we will all end up having different answers and none of us are going to suddenly change how we feel on the subject.

Samantha Blythe said:

Sorry, Adam....didn't mean to sound so over the top...it was late and it is so rare to find another person who has considered a society without government schooling that I got overly excited. Forgive me, please?

Anyway, as far as schools and libraries go, without the public options what you would get is real diversity. In this country at least - don't know about other countries - there were plenty of schools before there were mandatory attendance laws, and the literacy rate was actually higher then. If libraries were fee supported, then Christians wouldn't be bitching about immoral stuff therein, because they could join a library that didn't carry that kind of thing...and they wouldn't be trying to "get prayer back in schools" because they would choose schools that had their students pray if that's what they wanted. There could be schools just for the children of gay parents, so they could go to a school where they are not persecuted because of a different family structure...the list is endless.

I think a lot of people assume that someone who doesn't support State education doesn't care about education at all. I am wondering if this is what you think, and that's why my statement made you so mad. There is a logical fallacy called the either/or fallacy wherein it is assumed that your choices are limited to EITHER this OR that. One thing that libertarians believe is that if people want something, they will find it or create it if it doesn't exist - assuming their ability to do so is not thwarted by an outside agent. So we think that if there were no public education, there would be all kinds of educational opportunities that would spring up - including various options for poor people, which could range from outright charity schools to co-ops where the parents teach, to not much schooling at all, in favor of really working.

Anyway, I am interested to see that this thread now contains great food for thought about TWO of my great interests...and yes, you contributed greatly to the original topic and I was enjoying your contributions to the tangent. Sorry again for sounding shrill!



Adam Icarus said:

You know what? Never mind. I'm out. When "Abolish public education, public libraries..." comes up in this discussion, it's time for me to leave. I hope I contributed something to the original topic, Samantha.

[^[muhree]^]

wow oh my gosh I just got saved and I used to do a zine with my best friend and since I moved to Florida it seems like no one really knows wat a zine is. I became a youth leader and I realized that there are two drastically different views on wat is considered appropriate in religion just in our small church. There are the older more conservative christians who like the classic hymns and then there are the new wave youth who want contemporary music and a contemporary service but we just don't have enough members to split into two services. Now there is a revolt on the horizon and i'm trying to soften the blow a bit by offering an alternative to the youth. I wanted to make a zine for that contemporary group on alternative forms of worship and praise and all that good stuff. It seems like fate i ran across this bcus now i have a place to rant and who knows maybe we could help each other out :)

[incurable hippie]

In reply to the very original question, to find out what impression Christians / Christianity has on non-Christians, it seemed apt to post my new zine announcement! Not that I'd necessarily recommend it for Christians to read... but the atheists in the thread may be interested too.


The new issue of Rebel Grrl Zine is finally available - all 64 pages of it! It's A5 size (half size??) and due to having just paid for printing, I can't afford to trade this one, so it's only available to buy from rebelgrrlzine.co.uk

It's radical and rebellious and raar. Get your copy now!

[Dan 10things]

Now there is a Christian related zine I'd happily read :)

[incurable hippie]

Hehe! Cheers.

Dan 10things said:

Now there is a Christian related zine I'd happily read :)

[Bethany]

I went to an all girl Catholic School in a convent till I was 12. At some point I came to accept the fact that religion is in the eye of the beholder. My Grandparents were Baptist and told me only Baptists go to heaven. I thought this sounded scary so I asked my teacher Sr. Janine (a wise young nun) about this. She said that all religions go to heaven. Even if you don't believe in anything God doesn't care. He'll take you in. That's the Christian thing to do. Anyway, now I'm older and think she had a point. Sometimes I truly believe and sometimes I'm not so sure. I wouldn't knock anyone for their beliefs or non beliefs. : )

[APFuchs]

I'm a Christian. I'll fully admit to not being a perfect one (as there are none), but I'm all for Christ and my life has been truly transformed since meeting Him about 12 years ago.