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Before I try to respond to this, I'd like to know exactly what you consider to be things that the secularists push on everyone. I'd like to at least try to understand where you're coming from.
There are SO, SO, SO many laws, ordinances and regulations, that are grounded in a generally SECULAR worldview that it's hard to know where to begin.
1. Mandatory compulsory schooling and anti-truancy laws. Admittedly this started out as an anti-Catholic movement started to indoctrinate Catholic immigrants into mainstream Protestant values. But today, one main rationalization is to "socialize" children and make them "good", "productive" citizens.
2. Seatbelt, motorcycle helmut laws, bike helmut laws for children, safety seat regulation. Based on the SECULAR idea of the state as parent/protector/school master/marm of all adults and children, FOR THEIR OWN GOOD.
3. Commitment laws, based on SECULAR standards of "normalcy" defined in the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), the "Bible" of state-approved, "scientific" Psychology.
I readily admit, that 50, 100 years ago, POLITICALLY ACTIVE Christians insidiously weaved much of the their religion into government at all levels. Sometimes, it's hard to identify, because it's so subtle. I call it "crypto-theocracy", and I even suspect many right-leaning libertarians of defending/rationalizing some of it.
However, I think many anti-Christian left/secularists also oppress people with their presumptuous vision of THEIR "good society" and "weave" them into law. I don't even think it's necessarily calculated or malicious. It's just arrogant in a naive and well-intentioned sort of way. Like the Christians of old who sincerely thought they were doing good bringing civilization to the heathen, the secularists see themselves as making this world all safe and fair and rationally enlightened by "teaching" the masses of children "right thinking" based on "scientific" psychology and regulating all manner of adult behavior with the same glorious social goals.
I have a few issues with Christians myself. Samantha and I may have a few frank discussions about them at some point. But I'd like to keep them fair. I can sympathize with some of the response I've seen to Christians, but I think it's one-sided and exaggerated.
In a libertarian society there would be no public school monopoly or mandatory attendence and no truancy laws. Christians, Buddhists, secularists, Satanists, Sub Gennii, would all have their own schools if they wanted to send their children to a school at all.
You know what? Never mind. I'm out. When "Abolish public education, public libraries..." comes up in this discussion, it's time for me to leave. I hope I contributed something to the original topic, Samantha.
I didn't mean to sound angry. I just realized there was no point in arguing over the affects of a secular vs religious society, especially when extreme libertarianism is introduced to it. Because once again, you're picking and choosing what you believe are rights.
Once we get rid of anything that's public domain, like schooling and libraries, it then becomes a question of how far. Do we get rid of Medicaid and Medicare? Do we allow companies and organizations to own the highways? Do parks even exist anymore, as most people who have the money to own them would build over them? What about access to common communication mediums, which are regulated by the government?
There needs to be a balance between freedom and protection, whether from external or internal forces, in my opinion, and you don't agree. There's just no point to arguing about it, as we will all end up having different answers and none of us are going to suddenly change how we feel on the subject.
Samantha Blythe said:Sorry, Adam....didn't mean to sound so over the top...it was late and it is so rare to find another person who has considered a society without government schooling that I got overly excited. Forgive me, please?
Anyway, as far as schools and libraries go, without the public options what you would get is real diversity. In this country at least - don't know about other countries - there were plenty of schools before there were mandatory attendance laws, and the literacy rate was actually higher then. If libraries were fee supported, then Christians wouldn't be bitching about immoral stuff therein, because they could join a library that didn't carry that kind of thing...and they wouldn't be trying to "get prayer back in schools" because they would choose schools that had their students pray if that's what they wanted. There could be schools just for the children of gay parents, so they could go to a school where they are not persecuted because of a different family structure...the list is endless.
I think a lot of people assume that someone who doesn't support State education doesn't care about education at all. I am wondering if this is what you think, and that's why my statement made you so mad. There is a logical fallacy called the either/or fallacy wherein it is assumed that your choices are limited to EITHER this OR that. One thing that libertarians believe is that if people want something, they will find it or create it if it doesn't exist - assuming their ability to do so is not thwarted by an outside agent. So we think that if there were no public education, there would be all kinds of educational opportunities that would spring up - including various options for poor people, which could range from outright charity schools to co-ops where the parents teach, to not much schooling at all, in favor of really working.
Anyway, I am interested to see that this thread now contains great food for thought about TWO of my great interests...and yes, you contributed greatly to the original topic and I was enjoying your contributions to the tangent. Sorry again for sounding shrill!
Adam Icarus said:You know what? Never mind. I'm out. When "Abolish public education, public libraries..." comes up in this discussion, it's time for me to leave. I hope I contributed something to the original topic, Samantha.
Now there is a Christian related zine I'd happily read :)