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I just got this e-mail:

"Dear Ramsey

I am currently completing a book called FANZINES (Thames & Hudson) and have included the cover of List Goodbye, Baltimore, no. 12 (fall 2008), fully credited in the book.

My book looks at the history of fanzines in a general overview of UK and USA-based self-publishing. As a good example of an interesting contemporary personal zine it would be remiss not to include it in any history of fanzines. The book is due out in September and I hope this will establish the importance of this form of self-publishing.

I do hope this is okay.

Yours sincerely,

Prof Teal Triggs
University of the Arts London
"


Poor form right? I know a lot of zinesters don't care about their things being reproduced or used, and I actually don't mind at all for it to be included, but it seems like asking ahead of time would be the right thing to do, right? Especially for a book?


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Josef Belgada writes riot grrrl zines.

I hope Kanye West does not get angry that I ripped him off by reposting that cover without getting his permission first.

 

OH NOES HIS CONTENT HAS BEEN STOLEN.

I dunno. When one person dominates a 'discussion' it usually ceases to be a discussion.

It is and I'm really curious about what that means as copyright in the US and Uk are different, including that in the US we have right of first sale and in the UK they do not.

Nichole said:

Is the book Trigg's wrote copyrighted? Without proper credit and citations, does that mean that all works within the book are also copyrighted and owned under that publisher?

 

Just a curious question I have, is all. If it is, would that make the publication itself ironic?

 

 

I have a hard time looking at anything as a single issue and I know that my years of experience in DIY and punk have filtered my ethics into and "us" vs. "them" mentality sometimes and there are lots of issues going on in this situation.

There may be a logical disconnect that stealing thousands of dollars in copies from Kinko's was ok for me, but stealing from a small local business was not. In my head there is a very large difference between this huge slick coffee table-esque book being published and someone cobbling a zine together of images of zines they like. I doubt you could get it distributed in Urban Otfitters for $40 a book.

  After being involved with zines for over 15 years I'm tired of people telling me that I should be thankful when something I created is used for profit without my permission, which has happened several times. I can totally understand that notoriety and larger distribution could be something other people might enjoy, but I just don't. I would like that opinion to be respected. Part of my DIY ethic is that I want the control of my own distribution, that's why I printed and distributed my book myself even though I was approached by others to publish it.

I have a problem when someone misuses power and authority on the backs of others especially, in this case, where the book is supposed to be representative and celebratory of a specific community. Now, don't get me wrong, I am under no illusion that there is any cohesive "zine community". There are lots and lots and lots of groups and even solitary people creating zines and the only real thing we have in common, in my opinion, is that we all enjoy print media as a hobby. I respect that everyone uses zines as a difference medium and a difference vehicle, and I'd like my view to be respected. That being said, I feel that erring on the side of caution is always the best option in every situation.

 

As to the numerous factual inaccuracies: For better or for worse I think we expect a higher level of quality from an academic (as Teal Trigg's is) and a main stream publisher that I would think would do a better job at covering their ass in the legal sense. It does not logically follow that because there are inaccuracies in other books that we should just accept them in this one. Aside from copyright issues and being disingenuous to zine creators celebrating this book is rewarding bad behavior and lazy research.

What the fuck are you talking about? The dude posted some chill, well thought out responses to comments other people have made. How is that AT ALL domination? It has all been back and forth.

 

You are crazy.

Elaine said:

I dunno. When one person dominates a 'discussion' it usually ceases to be a discussion.
He was virtually the ONLY one for the past three screens worth of dialog for one.  I can discuss something without disrespecting the perspective the other person is coming from, but when I feel I'm being shot down for my opinion--that's not a discussion anymore, it's a domination.  The give and take is gone.

whatpeoplearethinking said:

What the fuck are you talking about? The dude posted some chill, well thought out responses to comments other people have made. How is that AT ALL domination? It has all been back and forth.

 

You are crazy.

Elaine said:

I dunno. When one person dominates a 'discussion' it usually ceases to be a discussion.

Now you're lying. Every single one of the guys posts (with the exception of his first) has been in response to someone else (either youself or user: NicoleIntrovert). That is a shared dialogue. Nicole called him an idiot, and you started claiming that you were being "dominated" (which you clearly aren't).

 

The dude has done nothing but share his opinion in a friendly manner. Don't try and make implications that he's a bad guy because you don't agree with him.


Elaine said:

He was virtually the ONLY one for the past three screens worth of dialog for one.  I can discuss something without disrespecting the perspective the other person is coming from, but when I feel I'm being shot down for my opinion--that's not a discussion anymore, it's a domination.  The give and take is gone.

whatpeoplearethinking said:

What the fuck are you talking about? The dude posted some chill, well thought out responses to comments other people have made. How is that AT ALL domination? It has all been back and forth.

 

You are crazy.

Elaine said:

I dunno. When one person dominates a 'discussion' it usually ceases to be a discussion.
The lack of common sense oozing from some folks in this thread is insulting to the human race.

 

An artist/(author's) intent is many times a terrible gauge when attempting to understand a work of art. Said another way, it almost doesn't matter what Teal Triggs' intent was - this is the outcome. While there are some really good points made in favor of the book, there are many more that are against the book. In the end, its just a mediocre mundane coffee table book that many mediocre mundane people will eventually buy, and then a few years later donate to the local Salvation Army, which will then sell it for a dollar or two to some kid in 2017, who will then make their own zine, and then in 2030 finally realize how mediocre and mundane that book was in the first place. By the way, I'm really glad I was able to pick up a copy at first opportunity!


Joseph Delgado said:

Again, no one seems to be poignantly questioning the 'motivation' behind this book...

Here is a question I've been wanting to ask since about the middle of this discussion, at least since the physical book came out. It doesn't look to have been asked in this form during this entire thread.

 

If Teal Triggs had done the work and had contacted zine publishers while she was in the beginning stages of the book, not right before it went to press, would you have granted permission for her to reproduce the cover and/or pages from your zines?

 

My answer: If she had been doing an actual, seriously scholarly work, I would have let her use covers and interior pages (with proper credits listed and a complimentary copy sent to me). But since it seems like FANZINES is little more than a picture book (from what I can tell from the discussion, still haven't seen a copy), I would have granted only a few cover images (with credit listed and a comp copy).

I'm sorry, I'm out of this so called conversation, I have other things to worry about. I'm burying my mother on Monday.

 

Elaine

whatpeoplearethinking said:

Now you're lying. Every single one of the guys posts (with the exception of his first) has been in response to someone else (either youself or user: NicoleIntrovert). That is a shared dialogue. Nicole called him an idiot, and you started claiming that you were being "dominated" (which you clearly aren't).

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