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I just got this e-mail:

"Dear Ramsey

I am currently completing a book called FANZINES (Thames & Hudson) and have included the cover of List Goodbye, Baltimore, no. 12 (fall 2008), fully credited in the book.

My book looks at the history of fanzines in a general overview of UK and USA-based self-publishing. As a good example of an interesting contemporary personal zine it would be remiss not to include it in any history of fanzines. The book is due out in September and I hope this will establish the importance of this form of self-publishing.

I do hope this is okay.

Yours sincerely,

Prof Teal Triggs
University of the Arts London
"


Poor form right? I know a lot of zinesters don't care about their things being reproduced or used, and I actually don't mind at all for it to be included, but it seems like asking ahead of time would be the right thing to do, right? Especially for a book?


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You're doing an amazing job with this Amber! While I wasn't personally affected by this, I support these efforts 100% due to how much this has upset my friends such as you, and the zine community.  If there's anything you want my help for in regards to this, let me know.

Amber / Culture Slut said:

For those who requested it, a list of every zine pictured in the book has finally been added to the website. If your zine was featured, you are entitled to receive a free contributor's copy from the publisher.

http://fanzinesbytealtriggs.weebly.com/

Thanks for this, now I'm after my free copy! I will say, since the book came out, at least in the UK, there seems to be a bit of a buzz about zines going on. I've been contacted by two other researchers for interviews from the UK, don't know if anyone else has.

Amber / Culture Slut said:

For those who requested it, a list of every zine pictured in the book has finally been added to the website. If your zine was featured, you are entitled to receive a free contributor's copy from the publisher.

http://fanzinesbytealtriggs.weebly.com/

is that because of the book though or just coincidental to its release? The "zine scene" in the UK is fairly healthy at the moment with plenty of new zine fairs popping up.

Dan 10things said:

Thanks for this, now I'm after my free copy! I will say, since the book came out, at least in the UK, there seems to be a bit of a buzz about zines going on. I've been contacted by two other researchers for interviews from the UK, don't know if anyone else has.

Amber / Culture Slut said:

For those who requested it, a list of every zine pictured in the book has finally been added to the website. If your zine was featured, you are entitled to receive a free contributor's copy from the publisher.

http://fanzinesbytealtriggs.weebly.com/

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've been keeping up with this issue a little bit. I hadn't actually seen the book until this weekend, when I found it at a local bookstore.

 

Strangely, the first page I flipped to had the cover of Creep #10 on it -- my boyfriend's college friend's zine he did when he was a teenager/early 20's that he showed to us when we were visiting him in Olympia. Of course, no credit to him in the book, and there's no way in hell that he knew about it.

 

I'm really bummed out that Triggs handled things the way she did. It's such a violation of so many things. It also bothers me that these tomes about riot grrrl and zines, etc. are coming out now like these things are totally dead and in the past. Also, a selfish bummer -- that book is printed really nicely, and had Triggs not been such an idiot, I totally would have bought it.

Probably both. I asked the last researcher though and she named Teal's new book specifically. I personally have no problem of with a cover or page or two of my zine being featured in a prominent new book about zines, the more hype the better! I'm publishing my first new issue in years in 2011 and I want people to order the damn thing. But my zines have never been for a small or limited audience, I always want as many readers and orders as possible. My zine has been written about or pictured quite a few times without the author telling me they were going to cover it, that seems pretty par for the course. It happened with the book "Loser" and just happened with Eric from the New Bomb Turk's new book on garage punk, I am always happy for the shout out. I'm slightly puzzled by people's expectations (that an author doing a history or scene book covering a ton of stuff would notify everyone they cover) or their getting pissed off about copyright (which featuring a cover or page of doesn't violate, plus zines violate copyright all the time). I guess I'm the kind of person that's always excited to have my zine featured, pictured or written about. I think in the '80s and '90s we had a pretty different attitude towards this stuff. Many of the zine books that came out in those times didn't notify the zines ahead of time and no one really complained about it. It just goes to show how attitudes in the zine community change over time.

Stephanos said:

is that because of the book though or just coincidental to its release? The "zine scene" in the UK is fairly healthy at the moment with plenty of new zine fairs popping up.

I'm missing your logic here, how is writing a book about zines now mean the zine scene is totally dead? Zine books were published throughout the past thirty years and were never about the scene being over. In regards to riot grrl, much like punk, I think it's awesome to document and write about it's early years, I don't see how that would discount anything going on today. I was recently contacted by an organization putting on a photo exhibit on the '90s riot grrrl movement (I took a bunch of photos at Bikini Kill, Tribe 8 and other shows back in the day), I think of that similarly as awesome.

ps- I totally remember Creep zine, I used to trade issues with him!

False Start Distro said:

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've been keeping up with this issue a little bit. I hadn't actually seen the book until this weekend, when I found it at a local bookstore.

 

Strangely, the first page I flipped to had the cover of Creep #10 on it -- my boyfriend's college friend's zine he did when he was a teenager/early 20's that he showed to us when we were visiting him in Olympia. Of course, no credit to him in the book, and there's no way in hell that he knew about it.

 

I'm really bummed out that Triggs handled things the way she did. It's such a violation of so many things. It also bothers me that these tomes about riot grrrl and zines, etc. are coming out now like these things are totally dead and in the past. Also, a selfish bummer -- that book is printed really nicely, and had Triggs not been such an idiot, I totally would have bought it.

I totally think it's awesome to document these things too, don't get me wrong! I guess I just have been talking to a lot of people lately who are around my age (23) who don't see zines as a medium that's still relevant and evolving because of these "let's talk about the 90's" books that are coming out now. Lots of people I know feel like they "missed out", when that's not true at all. That might just be an experience specific to my age group and location though...it's probably not a common response to these books across the board.

 

Anyway, Creep was such a cool zine! Toby busted out his old copies for me when we were staying at his place. I wish he had more copies so I could have taken one home to read more thoroughly!


Dan 10things said:

I'm missing your logic here, how is writing a book about zines now mean the zine scene is totally dead? Zine books were published throughout the past thirty years and were never about the scene being over. In regards to riot grrl, much like punk, I think it's awesome to document and write about it's early years, I don't see how that would discount anything going on today. I was recently contacted by an organization putting on a photo exhibit on the '90s riot grrrl movement (I took a bunch of photos at Bikini Kill, Tribe 8 and other shows back in the day), I think of that similarly as awesome.

ps- I totally remember Creep zine, I used to trade issues with him!

False Start Distro said:

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've been keeping up with this issue a little bit. I hadn't actually seen the book until this weekend, when I found it at a local bookstore.

 

Strangely, the first page I flipped to had the cover of Creep #10 on it -- my boyfriend's college friend's zine he did when he was a teenager/early 20's that he showed to us when we were visiting him in Olympia. Of course, no credit to him in the book, and there's no way in hell that he knew about it.

 

I'm really bummed out that Triggs handled things the way she did. It's such a violation of so many things. It also bothers me that these tomes about riot grrrl and zines, etc. are coming out now like these things are totally dead and in the past. Also, a selfish bummer -- that book is printed really nicely, and had Triggs not been such an idiot, I totally would have bought it.

You folks do understand that due to Triggs horrible research methods that there are not only zines included that she did not have permission to include... but outright INCORRECT information about zines, zine writers, festivals, etc.

We should be HAPPY someone ripped us off? That's like saying we should be happy someone emptied out our apartment before we got home, so our things could be admired by other people.

Sorry---this is copyright violation.  I would feel completely ripped off if mine were in there.  Fortunately they aren't, but I've had original soft sculpture designs stolen three times, one by a store who sent the design to China and had 5,000 dolls produced. It cost me $$$ to get a copyright lawyer and get my copyright honored. All the payment I got from the guy basically went to paying the lawyer. 

Theft is theft. 

Joseph Delgado said:

I think those zine publishers who have had their work published in this new book should be happy that they are getting some critical exposure; i

My stories and artwork are copyrighted, I did shift to a 'mainstream'. My rip offs were in my original soft sculpture toys, also copyrighted designs. The law upheld those.

I'm confused about your thought that 'collecting' and then officially publishing in a book that is bought by people around the world is not theft.  It's the main definition of copyright infringement.  Once someone produces something for money, that takes it away from any honoring of previous work and turns it into income. A totally different story.  As others pointed out, the person COULD have made some attempt to get an ok from the original owners of the work.



Joseph Delgado said:

Then you need to shift your practice from an independent label to a more mainstream label then if your so concerned about your zines being stolen......you are equating documentation with theft...

 

Every single book out there that 'catalogs' works gives credit in the back index to both the places they found the works, who wrote the works, which estate holds copyright to the works, etc.  That's why I'm surprised a publisher went ahead and printed the book without having her do that service.  Book advances benefit the writer to the tune of $5,000 for any book, with royalties tacked onto that once the books sell past a certain point.  If her passion was so great she'd have done at least minimal work to contact the community and ask. 

When did the community establish rules? It's worldwide.  A small community of any sort benefits from the rules already in place whether they voted for them or not.  It's one thing for a small community to exchange and trade, it's among themsleves and limited.  Once it hits a bookstore--and thereby the publisher, warehousing, ISBN numbers etc., it's a commercial venture not a hobby or small community thing.  Giving credit where credit is due was never done.  That's what I take issue with.  It's not like everyone she 'borrowed' from has died.

Joseph Delgado said:

But you are assuming again the Triggs' attempt was to profit off the backs of the zine writers...what if her attempt was simply to catalogue the work?

LOL.

Karen Paulie, Care and Feeding of Spinning Wheels.  Ciro Marchetti with his tarot deck/book set.  Writer's publication sites (best selling NY times books bulletin board).  A personal friend currently shopping her book around to publishers. Writers Digest agent articles in the past Nov.-Dec. issues.  Sure, it's negotiable, but the advances are still there.

Quibble all you want, money is being made when something goes through the standard publisher sites and is offered to the public.

The whole thread here is about how WE feel about this. I stated my views and reasons.  She dropped the ball and neglected an important part.  I'm not argueing the validity of how I feel.   

Joseph Delgado said:

I wonder where you get your numbers, cause i have never received such a generous advance even as a winner of a principal award via a major publisher....and i know from experience that royalties are bracketed based on the number of books sold and at most many writers only get up to 50% royalties (based off wholesale price after publisher discount usually at 48 to 50% the face value after the advance payout was satisfied via sales) if they are even remotely lucky and only if they sell past a particular threshold and usually they only get about 8% royalties and their usual print runs are limited to 2000 these days...i know.  You are again assuming that zinesters should follow these legal precedents that we have for the last thirty years purposely attacked via utilizing underground and radical means...for all we know Triggs total sales minus returns, minus damaged shipments, minus fees and expenses may only be a handful, poor royalties, and for all we know her advance was a measly 1000 to 2000 dollars since she isnt a celebrity or anything or self-help book writer....i digress...the point is that zines shouldnt be held to the same industry standards...rather their existence is a manifestation or reactions against such 'community' established rules and regulations...you make a dangerous assumption that all oblige such rules...I still hold Triggs work is important, albeit lacking in variety, and those included should be honored that ten or twenty years from now, some young person will come along flip open a tattered copy and be inspired...isnt that what the nature of creativity is about? rather than worrying about the trivalities of money....

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