etiquette and professionialsim

[CocoaPuss Zine]

if you order a zine from someone from here through paypal and they go more than a week or more without sending it you or sending you a note, what should you do? this person does not respond to comments on their page, so is the next step an email? i don't know if this person just disappeared off the face of the earth, but...

1. i REALLY wanted her zine.

2. i paid for it with my REAL money

3. if i don't get it by the end of the week, i'm going to start looking for ways to get my money back.

4. i kinda want to put this person on blast because i work really hard at mailing things out on time, all the time, and if i know i'm going to be even a day late, i send some sort of note explaining why and how. people pay me their money or trade with me, so i am responsible.

5. everyone on here has been LOVELY and refreshing and offered me so much help, i just get really bummed out when people just take my money, even $2 or $3 and rip me off.

any thoughts?

[Kisha]

Yes, I was one of those people who requested a refund after 3 weeks. Why? Because after realizing that she had the means to contact me does not explain why I didn't receive a message saying "hey, got your payment! I'm slow mailing my shit out but I'll get it to you!" It's called common courtesy, it has nothing to do with this being a business or not. Using the excuse that zines used to take 6 months to arrive back in the day, or that it's DIY "just go with the flow!" is bullshit.

I don't care if it takes you a YEAR to mail out some shit, it is common fucking courtesy, end of story. Yes, the OP getting antsy after one week is a bit much, but almost a month is a little ridiculous.

Hell, I was fine when Hannah finally responded to my email saying that she mails out slowly. Fine! I'll wait another month to read a cool zine. But then I was sent another email saying she'd get it out before the end of the week. Yup, that didn't happen either.

Common courtesy, people.

[Blister Herzog]

You're all a bunch of fucking babies; stop embracing the atrocities of this -- our fast food nation, and take the initiative to create some actual art, instead of pop culture memorabilia. Real art takes time, something worth giving to this society, to our community. So lets stop worrying about how fast we can distribute a piece of shit, and get back to the idea of being real artists. Lets try something here, and create something that's worth a damn, and can actually define us as a generation that's actually got something worth saying.

Yours,
Blister H.

[NicoleIntrovert]

I appreciate you bringing up some of the other instances that a "call out" section would be beneficial for.

I hate using the phrase "call out"... deadbeat?... i dunno. Regardless of name, I really like the fact that you pointed out the ever many "zine libraries" or "distros" that never came to be. This would be great for those instances like the "Slo_Mo_Panda" incident on Live Journal where she solicited zine donations... just to go sell them on Ebay.

Or all the distros i unknowingly sent zines to, never to hear from them again. But they "promised" they'd be opening soon. (Actually... that just fueled my fire into actual creating a responsible and well planned distro.)

Aj Michel said:

I agree with Nicole here. These "call out" sections can serve a good informative purpose. For example in "Miscellaneous" section of "Word of Mouth" in the latest Zine World there's a note that Violet Jones' PO Box has been closed and there was no forwarding address. This is useful information b/c I had been wondering if there were ever going to be more issues of "Free Press Death Ship" or "Spunk". Now I know not to send a note that will just go nowhere.

And if I recall, these types of "call out" sections in both the late F5 and other places were helpful for people trying to get money from the old, long gone See Hear zine store in the East Village NYC.

However, it has to be USEFUL information in these "call out" sections (and they also need a better name b/c I really hate the expression "called out on their shit") to make them truly worthwhile. Items like deadbeat distros, zine libraries that never really became libraries but still solicited zines, unsettling requests (such as from questionable convicted criminals), etc.

Again, I think it is situations like this that really highlight differences between older and younger zine publishers. But then again, I think this is just representative of the shift in culture to "Now! Now! Now! Instant! Now! Now!"

NicoleIntrovert said:

THOSE types of things i would like to see called out. Not someone not getting ONE zine in a week. But legit problems with people who could be scamming or people that are just too irresponsible to handle orders.

[ciaraxyerra]

just so you know, hannah, no, i didn't delete the post i made about today's unfortunate discussion. you were removed from the community. the post is still there & has garnered quite a bit of positive feedback. isn't it interesting to realize that you aren't the center of the universe?

i am 100% in agreement with kisha. in the age of paypal, yes, people sometimes expect immediate gratification with order turn-around, & i do think expecting a zine to show up in your mailbox in a week is pushing the limits of what is reasonable. but paypal informs people when they have a new payment, & you can just hit "reply" & say, "hi, i got your order, it will be in the mail by such & such a date." courtesy is a two-way street, & if we are going to expect orderers to be patient & understanding that getting to the post office isn't our first priority, we need to show them the courtesy of acknowledging their orders & letting them know about anticipated delays. the second or third time someone fails to send something within the time frame they promised, i think it's totally fair to request a refund.

i also think a community call-out board or explanation of who has been sketchy would be a great idea, because so many people have no clue what we're talking about when we say "slo-mo panda," & then don't understand why people might be anxious about new untested zine libraries soliciting free donations. bill price has become a big enough issue in the zine scene that he garnered his own page in "stolen sharpie revolution". i think sketchy distros & zinesters that don't follow through on their proposed plans aren't on par with the bill price mess, obvs, but when there is an especially egregious incident, it might be nice for people to know about it. i certainly would have made different choices about the way i approached podcastgate 2009 had i had certain information ahead of time. *shrug*

[Erin H]

I'm kind of torn about the whole call-out zine thing. It could be a really good resource, or it could cause a lot of drama. Especially if it's online and/or an open forum that anyone can contribute to. And especially if it's not moderated.

[Hannah Neurotica]

I know, I guess you are. My mistake. hahahahah

ciaraxyerra said:

just so you know, hannah, no, i didn't delete the post i made about today's unfortunate discussion. you were removed from the community. the post is still there & has garnered quite a bit of positive feedback. isn't it interesting to realize that you aren't the center of the universe?

i am 100% in agreement with kisha. in the age of paypal, yes, people sometimes expect immediate gratification with order turn-around, & i do think expecting a zine to show up in your mailbox in a week is pushing the limits of what is reasonable. but paypal informs people when they have a new payment, & you can just hit "reply" & say, "hi, i got your order, it will be in the mail by such & such a date." courtesy is a two-way street, & if we are going to expect orderers to be patient & understanding that getting to the post office isn't our first priority, we need to show them the courtesy of acknowledging their orders & letting them know about anticipated delays. the second or third time someone fails to send something within the time frame they promised, i think it's totally fair to request a refund.

i also think a community call-out board or explanation of who has been sketchy would be a great idea, because so many people have no clue what we're talking about when we say "slo-mo panda," & then don't understand why people might be anxious about new untested zine libraries soliciting free donations. bill price has become a big enough issue in the zine scene that he garnered his own page in "stolen sharpie revolution". i think sketchy distros & zinesters that don't follow through on their proposed plans aren't on par with the bill price mess, obvs, but when there is an especially egregious incident, it might be nice for people to know about it. i certainly would have made different choices about the way i approached podcastgate 2009 had i had certain information ahead of time. *shrug*

[amandaaaa]

i've always sent mine out within a few days of receiving the payment or being asked to trade.
personally, i feel like i spend a lot of time putting together my zines and stuff and i want to get them out to people.
and i think it's awesome that people have wanted to read my zines and have interest in them, so i feel like i should get them sent out the soonest i can.
if i have stamps around, i just stick a couple on and take it out to the mailbox or the nearest mail drop box thing.

[Dan 10things]

Blister Herzog said:

You're all a bunch of fucking babies; stop embracing the atrocities of this -- our fast food nation, and take the initiative to create some actual art, instead of pop culture memorabilia. Real art takes time, something worth giving to this society, to our community. So lets stop worrying about how fast we can distribute a piece of shit, and get back to the idea of being real artists. Lets try something here, and create something that's worth a damn, and can actually define us as a generation that's actually got something worth saying.

Yours,
Blister H.

At the point you are taking orders for an issue though, it's already created and done, so why the delay? Sure, "real art" takes time, but this discussion is more about how long is it reasonable to wait for someone to simply mail you an issue after you've paid them. BTW, many of us consider ourselves more writers/self-publishers than artists. For me content has always been more important than design, thankfully I have some talented friends who are always willing to help on the art end of things.

[Dan 10things]

Hi Hannah, I'm Dan. You said in your podcast you've never met a zinester that's made more than a few dollars off publishing a zine, now you have. In the hey day of the '90s zine scene, it wasn't uncommon for zinesters to actually make a little money, we printed and sold a lot more issues, had national indie distribution, got national press attention, had big zine shows, and were supported by advertising through the indie music scene's success at the time. I printed 3,000 or 4,000 copies an issue sometimes and would get two dozen orders a week on top of advertising and distribution sales, I easily made $500 on a couple issues.

Sadly I think you've taken a personal issue, someone complaining about your turn around time on orders (who was cool and didn't even name your zine, even if they seemed a little too impatient) and made it into some larger drama about "this is the way the zine community is and should be." I think it's important to remember that your circumstances and attitude are your own, we don't all share them. The zine community is a lot bigger and more diverse than the small segment of it you may have been exposed to. And that's a good thing, we want a big diverse zine scene that has people from all points of view and a variety of zines, from little perzines that only print a couple dozen issues to bigger zines that print a couple thousand and bring zines to a much larger/wider audience. I don't understand the idea of jumping on anyone that thinks outside the current dominant norm in zining. Do we want everyone to think the same and do things the same? Where's the fucking rebellion in that?

[Hannah Neurotica]

uuuh what? i was talking about people who dont sell ad space and never claim to speak for anyone but myself. thanks.

Dan 10things said:

Hi Hannah, I'm Dan. You said in your podcast you've never met a zinester that's made more than a few dollars off publishing a zine, now you have. In the hey day of the '90s zine scene, it wasn't uncommon for zinesters to actually make a little money, we printed and sold a lot more issues, had national indie distribution, got national press attention, had big zine shows, and were supported by advertising through the indie music scene's success at the time. I printed 3,000 or 4,000 copies an issue sometimes and would get two dozen orders a week on top of advertising and distribution sales, I easily made $500 on a couple issues.

Sadly I think you've taken a personal issue, someone complaining about your turn around time on orders (who was cool and didn't even name your zine, even if they seemed a little too impatient) and made it into some larger drama about "this is the way the zine community is and should be." I think it's important to remember that your circumstances and attitude are your own, we don't all share them. The zine community is a lot bigger and more diverse than the small segment of it you may have been exposed to. And that's a good thing, we want a big diverse zine scene that has people from all points of view and a variety of zines, from little perzines that only print a couple dozen issues to bigger zines that print a couple thousand and bring zines to a much larger/wider audience. I don't understand the idea of jumping on anyone that thinks outside the current dominant norm in zining. Do we want everyone to think the same and do things the same? Where's the fucking rebellion in that?

[Dan 10things]

Hannah Neurotica said:

uuuh what? i was talking about people who dont sell ad space and never claim to speak for anyone but myself. thanks.

I was referring to the line ""I have not yet in the 12 years doing my zine met one person that's made beyond $1..." But listening to it again to get the quote, I realize that the intro was by another zinester and not you. So sorry, I was disagree with your lead commenter instead. However, Cometbus, The Match and Answer Me would all be examples of zines that make (or made) a profit with no advertising. I have a hard time fathoming why it matters anyway, but suffice it to say, yes, many many zines have made some sort of profit and it's usually one that did have to dabble into the business side of self-publishing working with distros and/or advertisers.

[Dorian Shaw]

Not to keep pointing fingers-but I never received a refund or zines from Hannah either. I waited months-and nothing ever came. I don't expect zines to be in my mail box the very next day, but after a month I start wondering, and then after 4 months I accept the fact that nothing will be coming-especially when I am told a few times that they are on their way. It is common courtesy to be true to your word.


Kisha said:

Yes, I was one of those people who requested a refund after 3 weeks. Why? Because after realizing that she had the means to contact me does not explain why I didn't receive a message saying "hey, got your payment! I'm slow mailing my shit out but I'll get it to you!" It's called common courtesy, it has nothing to do with this being a business or not. Using the excuse that zines used to take 6 months to arrive back in the day, or that it's DIY "just go with the flow!" is bullshit.

I don't care if it takes you a YEAR to mail out some shit, it is common fucking courtesy, end of story. Yes, the OP getting antsy after one week is a bit much, but almost a month is a little ridiculous.

Hell, I was fine when Hannah finally responded to my email saying that she mails out slowly. Fine! I'll wait another month to read a cool zine. But then I was sent another email saying she'd get it out before the end of the week. Yup, that didn't happen either.

Common courtesy, people.