etiquette and professionialsim

[CocoaPuss Zine]

if you order a zine from someone from here through paypal and they go more than a week or more without sending it you or sending you a note, what should you do? this person does not respond to comments on their page, so is the next step an email? i don't know if this person just disappeared off the face of the earth, but...

1. i REALLY wanted her zine.

2. i paid for it with my REAL money

3. if i don't get it by the end of the week, i'm going to start looking for ways to get my money back.

4. i kinda want to put this person on blast because i work really hard at mailing things out on time, all the time, and if i know i'm going to be even a day late, i send some sort of note explaining why and how. people pay me their money or trade with me, so i am responsible.

5. everyone on here has been LOVELY and refreshing and offered me so much help, i just get really bummed out when people just take my money, even $2 or $3 and rip me off.

any thoughts?

[Candace]

"if you want to keep arguing about whether it's a business or not, that's fine, but there are plenty of other zine type things to disscuss. i got my answers now."

I'm sorry, but this just depresses the crap out of me. It does sound like a tantrum of sorts. I think there's a fine line between giving feedback to someone for how fast they send their zines, and being an outright arsehole who doesn't appear to care about the community aspect of zines. You waited one week before getting mad? Seriously? I've also been around for awhile, back when there was apparently a little more patience and cash was sent in the mail. Things happen, we are not corporate entities. This is a hobby for most of us, something we love and do in our spare time. Yes people should send things as quickly as possible, but we are all people here. The benefit of taking part in an independent publishing scene where work is created outside mass media is that you deal with actual people, and are part of a community of creators. The downside is that people aren't perfect.
It does sound like you may be in the wrong place, or at least don't seem to have a very nice attitude.

[Emma Jane Falconer]

Erm, as well, has the original poster even considered that not all zine people live in the US, and getting things internationally within a week can never be guaranteed?

[betrayedzine]

I agree. If being professional were my primary concern, I'd be spending my time doing something else. It is a concern, but the top one always is to enjoy myself while doing zines, not fret about what day things arrive etc. If speed is a huge concern, perhaps you should consider sticking to blogs.

Candace said:

"if you want to keep arguing about whether it's a business or not, that's fine, but there are plenty of other zine type things to disscuss. i got my answers now."
I'm sorry, but this just depresses the crap out of me. It does sound like a tantrum of sorts. I think there's a fine line between giving feedback to someone for how fast they send their zines, and being an outright arsehole who doesn't appear to care about the community aspect of zines. You waited one week before getting mad? Seriously? I've also been around for awhile, back when there was apparently a little more patience and cash was sent in the mail. Things happen, we are not corporate entities. This is a hobby for most of us, something we love and do in our spare time. Yes people should send things as quickly as possible, but we are all people here. The benefit of taking part in an independent publishing scene where work is created outside mass media is that you deal with actual people, and are part of a community of creators. The downside is that people aren't perfect. It does sound like you may be in the wrong place, or at least don't seem to have a very nice attitude.

[James N. Dawson]

I wrote:

Even if you're zining isn't strictly a "business", you shouldn't publicize your zine, offer it for sale or trade, and then when you get trades & money, not follow through. That "Even", makes all the difference in meaning.

Whether you write & sell your zines as a business, OR NOT---it's not really any issue with me---it's a matter of making an agreement with another person, and I would think, basic ethics would obligate you to follow through with it. All the outrage about "running zines as a business" seems like a bit of red herring to the main issue, as I understand it.

Yes, I know people get sick and swamped with all kinds of life matters, and these're perfectly good excuses for being late. I think, I hope, I admitted that.

I wrote that my "impatience point" was in the 3 to 6 week range. By that standard, in my estimation, CocoaPuss may have been a little premature in making a complaint or demanding a refund. My "10 day" deadline was off the top of my head. I'm not saying it's written in stone. I have no idea how long I often wait for a zine before even noticing how long it's been. Weeks? Months? I guess I'd have to do some research.

I can't say how long is too long in filling an order or trade. What did they use to say on order froms in magazines back in the old days---6 weeks? That doesn't mean I'm going to pillory chiara for sometimes having taken 6 months, or some people a year, but, subjectively, unless you're beset with some serious life problems, that seems a BIT long, and I couldn't blame somebody for writing them a little reminder---Did you get my order? By the same token, I can't be as hard as lot of people here have been on CocoaPuss. She wanted that zine. I know the feeling.

I can very much understand that a prisoner would feel the lack of a late zine much more intensely that we in the "free" world would, so I'm not ready to call them impatient assholes when they vent their frustration---especially if they've spent their meager stamps on them.

Not getting zines you've ordered and how long is a reasonable waiting period are valid concerns for zine buyers and traders. It's a complicated, glass half full/glass half empty question, but nobody's being an asshole by expressing opposing views on it.

[redguard]

For a lot of us, zine-making is the epitomy of ANTI-business. In other words, we do it because we care about issues, we care about art and writing, we care about people and communities that are unserved or underserved by traditional, for profit, "business" publishers.

I'm speaking as someone who has worked on deadline as an editor and journalist, who always tries to fill zine orders within one or two days. But I'm also in a privileged position relative to many zinesters. I have a steady job, and access through that job to copies and/or postage if I'm broke or in a crunch. Most people who make zines don't have that. It's usually a long, tedious, scraping pennies and time together process. You may have to make copies as you go, 12 or 6 or 1 at a time.

If you are really interested in what someone has to say about *whatever* and can't bear to part with your $2 for a week or a month or six weeks, or are going to freak out if you never receive your order, you should probably get a new hobby. Go to the library, or Barnes & Noble. Or buy zines from a major distro/indy publisher like Microcosm. The problem is, you won't have the range of views and perspectives that you have with zines, zinesters and small distros, but if you're not willing to give a fellow human / zinester / zine reader the benefit of the doubt ... then frankly, that may be all you require.

I want to thank Hannah and others for taking up this challenge. I'm looking forward to hearing the discussion on Zinecore Radio Thursday night!

[Hannah Neurotica]

www.blogtalkradio.com/thezineshow


THIS EPISODE WAS INSPIRED BY THIS THREAD! xoxoox

[Hannah Neurotica]

james, its really to bad you couldnt come on the show =(
James N. Dawson said:

I wrote:

Even if you're zining isn't strictly a "business", you shouldn't publicize your zine, offer it for sale or trade, and then when you get trades & money, not follow through. That "Even", makes all the difference in meaning.

Whether you write & sell your zines as a business, OR NOT---it's not really any issue with me---it's a matter of making an agreement with another person, and I would think, basic ethics would obligate you to follow through with it. All the outrage about "running zines as a business" seems like a bit of red herring to the main issue, as I understand it.

Yes, I know people get sick and swamped with all kinds of life matters, and these're perfectly good excuses for being late. I think, I hope, I admitted that.

I wrote that my "impatience point" was in the 3 to 6 week range. By that standard, in my estimation, CocoaPuss may have been a little premature in making a complaint or demanding a refund. My "10 day" deadline was off the top of my head. I'm not saying it's written in stone. I have no idea how long I often wait for a zine before even noticing how long it's been. Weeks? Months? I guess I'd have to do some research.

I can't say how long is too long in filling an order or trade. What did they use to say on order froms in magazines back in the old days---6 weeks? That doesn't mean I'm going to pillory chiara for sometimes having taken 6 months, or some people a year, but, subjectively, unless you're beset with some serious life problems, that seems a BIT long, and I couldn't blame somebody for writing them a little reminder---Did you get my order? By the same token, I can't be as hard as lot of people here have been on CocoaPuss. She wanted that zine. I know the feeling.

I can very much understand that a prisoner would feel the lack of a late zine much more intensely that we in the "free" world would, so I'm not ready to call them impatient assholes when they vent their frustration---especially if they've spent their meager stamps on them.

Not getting zines you've ordered and how long is a reasonable waiting period are valid concerns for zine buyers and traders. It's a complicated, glass half full/glass half empty question, but nobody's being an asshole by expressing opposing views on it.

[NicoleIntrovert]

Just to continue a bit with the discussion and something that was brought up in the episode that i was not there for when it was brought up... was the idea of a "call out" forum like what was in Factsheet 5.

To a point I like this, but only if people utilize it responsibly. Ie. NOT the original poster of this thread. But for my examples:

Ordered some zines/handmade soap from a well-known zinester on Etsy a couple years ago. yeah it sucked that i lost my $7 but it sucked more that they had made Etsy sales to AT LEAST 3 other people that i knew personally (and more people i didn't know) and never sent any of it, and never responded to any communication.

Also i ordered zines for my distro spending upwards of $36 from a well-known zinester in August 2008 and have yet to receive them and have been told "oh i forgot" and ignored communication... and i see that this person is active on the internet (Facebook in particular)

THOSE types of things i would like to see called out. Not someone not getting ONE zine in a week. But legit problems with people who could be scamming or people that are just too irresponsible to handle orders.

[Hannah Neurotica]

very good point nicole! =) i agree!

NicoleIntrovert said:

Just to continue a bit with the discussion and something that was brought up in the episode that i was not there for when it was brought up... was the idea of a "call out" forum like what was in Factsheet 5.

To a point I like this, but only if people utilize it responsibly. Ie. NOT the original poster of this thread. But for my examples:

Ordered some zines/handmade soap from a well-known zinester on Etsy a couple years ago. yeah it sucked that i lost my $7 but it sucked more that they had made Etsy sales to AT LEAST 3 other people that i knew personally (and more people i didn't know) and never sent any of it, and never responded to any communication.

Also i ordered zines for my distro spending upwards of $36 from a well-known zinester in August 2008 and have yet to receive them and have been told "oh i forgot" and ignored communication... and i see that this person is active on the internet (Facebook in particular)

THOSE types of things i would like to see called out. Not someone not getting ONE zine in a week. But legit problems with people who could be scamming or people that are just too irresponsible to handle orders.

[ciaraxyerra]

dear hannah, you deleted your podcast thread? very adult. stay out of the big kids' pool if you can't handle people pointing out your dishonest, self-serving antics.

[Hannah Neurotica]

oh and u didnt delete the abusive bullshit post you made about me on LJ? you asshole.
ciaraxyerra said:

dear hannah, you deleted your podcast thread? very adult. stay out of the big kids' pool if you can't handle people pointing out your dishonest, self-serving antics.

[Aj Michel]

I agree with Nicole here. These "call out" sections can serve a good informative purpose. For example in "Miscellaneous" section of "Word of Mouth" in the latest Zine World there's a note that Violet Jones' PO Box has been closed and there was no forwarding address. This is useful information b/c I had been wondering if there were ever going to be more issues of "Free Press Death Ship" or "Spunk". Now I know not to send a note that will just go nowhere.

And if I recall, these types of "call out" sections in both the late F5 and other places were helpful for people trying to get money from the old, long gone See Hear zine store in the East Village NYC.

However, it has to be USEFUL information in these "call out" sections (and they also need a better name b/c I really hate the expression "called out on their shit") to make them truly worthwhile. Items like deadbeat distros, zine libraries that never really became libraries but still solicited zines, unsettling requests (such as from questionable convicted criminals), etc.

Again, I think it is situations like this that really highlight differences between older and younger zine publishers. But then again, I think this is just representative of the shift in culture to "Now! Now! Now! Instant! Now! Now!"

NicoleIntrovert said:

THOSE types of things i would like to see called out. Not someone not getting ONE zine in a week. But legit problems with people who could be scamming or people that are just too irresponsible to handle orders.